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	<title>Comments on: Environmental Graffiti&#8217;s Guide to Black Holes</title>
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	<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573</link>
	<description>for environmentalists who don't take themselves too seriously</description>
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		<title>By: kylie</title>
		<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573/comment-page-1#comment-174188</link>
		<dc:creator>kylie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=6573#comment-174188</guid>
		<description>hey spencer,  you&#039;re utterly useless ?!(and stupid)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey spencer,  you&#8217;re utterly useless ?!(and stupid)</p>
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		<title>By: Moogle</title>
		<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573/comment-page-1#comment-169630</link>
		<dc:creator>Moogle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 16:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=6573#comment-169630</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Ryan&#039;s first comment more than his second.

From your response, it&#039;s clear that you&#039;re AWARE that the argument you put on the intro is bull, and that you put it on the front page makes it clear that you intend to use the controversy to make the article more &#039;dramatic&#039;.

A short blurb at the end about how &#039;most&#039; &#039;predict&#039; it won&#039;t be a problem doesn&#039;t make you innocent.  It&#039;s an incredibly weak statement, especially in the eyes of someone unfamiliar with the area.  How hard would have been to mention that collisions as and more powerful than LHC&#039;s happen in our atmosphere all the time and have been for billions of years, which anyone can understand nullifies the concerns without depending on what scientists say?  And it&#039;s still irresponsible to overstate the problem on the intro and retract it on the last page.

The disparity in language between lay use and science is a huge sticking point.  We&#039;re all aware that if you&#039;re being pedantic, nothing&#039;s 100% certain, ever.  This doesn&#039;t make it acceptable to skew facts just to hold the interest of people who come here for interesting and factual information.  When &#039;a few physicists&#039; means &#039;a vanishingly small number of people who don&#039;t work in the field&#039; and &#039;most&#039; is &#039;everyone who knows what they&#039;re talking about&#039;, then yes, you&#039;re being intellectually irresponsible, even if those statements are technically true.

Sorry to go on at such length, I&#039;m not angry or anything.  I just want to make it clear that over-dramatized science reporting is a problem that leads to the kinds of stupid lawsuits and public misunderstanding that hurt the research that you report on.  Really, it&#039;s possible to hold people&#039;s interest without having to stretch a scenario where the subject matter might kill them.

Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Ryan&#8217;s first comment more than his second.</p>
<p>From your response, it&#8217;s clear that you&#8217;re AWARE that the argument you put on the intro is bull, and that you put it on the front page makes it clear that you intend to use the controversy to make the article more &#8216;dramatic&#8217;.</p>
<p>A short blurb at the end about how &#8216;most&#8217; &#8216;predict&#8217; it won&#8217;t be a problem doesn&#8217;t make you innocent.  It&#8217;s an incredibly weak statement, especially in the eyes of someone unfamiliar with the area.  How hard would have been to mention that collisions as and more powerful than LHC&#8217;s happen in our atmosphere all the time and have been for billions of years, which anyone can understand nullifies the concerns without depending on what scientists say?  And it&#8217;s still irresponsible to overstate the problem on the intro and retract it on the last page.</p>
<p>The disparity in language between lay use and science is a huge sticking point.  We&#8217;re all aware that if you&#8217;re being pedantic, nothing&#8217;s 100% certain, ever.  This doesn&#8217;t make it acceptable to skew facts just to hold the interest of people who come here for interesting and factual information.  When &#8216;a few physicists&#8217; means &#8216;a vanishingly small number of people who don&#8217;t work in the field&#8217; and &#8216;most&#8217; is &#8216;everyone who knows what they&#8217;re talking about&#8217;, then yes, you&#8217;re being intellectually irresponsible, even if those statements are technically true.</p>
<p>Sorry to go on at such length, I&#8217;m not angry or anything.  I just want to make it clear that over-dramatized science reporting is a problem that leads to the kinds of stupid lawsuits and public misunderstanding that hurt the research that you report on.  Really, it&#8217;s possible to hold people&#8217;s interest without having to stretch a scenario where the subject matter might kill them.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Haupt</title>
		<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573/comment-page-1#comment-168336</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Haupt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=6573#comment-168336</guid>
		<description>Bennett,

Yeah, I&#039;ll agree that calling it &quot;intellectually irresponsible&quot; was overly harsh. I apologize for that. Upon first reading it seemed a little sensational and I suppose that I am just overly sensitive to perceived misreporting. 

The one lawsuit I remember hearing reported was the botanist from Hawaii who frankly seemed not to have the slightest idea what he was talking about, scientifically or legally.

While this entire LHC experiment is hugely novel it seems that every precaution is being taken to keep Earth safe. The science also seems to support the claim that the LHC is a safe machine. This quality analysis and relative consensus among the scientific community should be given weight over the claims of a few &#039;fringe&#039; scientists, to say nothing of any ulterior motives for outspoken disapproval. I don&#039;t mean to discount the possibility of a revolutionary discovery proving the consensus wrong, but such events are rare enough that the should not come to be expected.

My own fields (evolution and climatology) are extremely susceptible to reporting that portrays both sides of the &quot;debate&quot; as equal in scale and legitimacy and I was worried that a similar misrepresentation was occurring here. 

I also did not mean to imply that you wouldn&#039;t have read the necessary prerequisite literature on the subject, my intention posting the article with my summary quote was for the larger reading public, that in all likelihood wouldn&#039;t bother reading such a dense and technical document.

To finish, I agree that we are also in agreement. Thanks for the thoughtful response. It&#039;s nice to find that is it indeed possible to have a civil and open discussion online that is drowned out by noise and name calling.

Best,
Ryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bennett,</p>
<p>Yeah, I&#8217;ll agree that calling it &#8220;intellectually irresponsible&#8221; was overly harsh. I apologize for that. Upon first reading it seemed a little sensational and I suppose that I am just overly sensitive to perceived misreporting. </p>
<p>The one lawsuit I remember hearing reported was the botanist from Hawaii who frankly seemed not to have the slightest idea what he was talking about, scientifically or legally.</p>
<p>While this entire LHC experiment is hugely novel it seems that every precaution is being taken to keep Earth safe. The science also seems to support the claim that the LHC is a safe machine. This quality analysis and relative consensus among the scientific community should be given weight over the claims of a few &#8216;fringe&#8217; scientists, to say nothing of any ulterior motives for outspoken disapproval. I don&#8217;t mean to discount the possibility of a revolutionary discovery proving the consensus wrong, but such events are rare enough that the should not come to be expected.</p>
<p>My own fields (evolution and climatology) are extremely susceptible to reporting that portrays both sides of the &#8220;debate&#8221; as equal in scale and legitimacy and I was worried that a similar misrepresentation was occurring here. </p>
<p>I also did not mean to imply that you wouldn&#8217;t have read the necessary prerequisite literature on the subject, my intention posting the article with my summary quote was for the larger reading public, that in all likelihood wouldn&#8217;t bother reading such a dense and technical document.</p>
<p>To finish, I agree that we are also in agreement. Thanks for the thoughtful response. It&#8217;s nice to find that is it indeed possible to have a civil and open discussion online that is drowned out by noise and name calling.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Ryan</p>
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		<title>By: Bennett (author)</title>
		<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573/comment-page-1#comment-167822</link>
		<dc:creator>Bennett (author)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 06:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=6573#comment-167822</guid>
		<description>Ryan -
The article you reference was read and understood by me some time ago. It is noted in this article that a &#039;few&#039; scientists are worried about dangers they perceive (?imagine) might result from micro black holes produced by the next round of experiments at CERN. I agree these worries are &#039;fringe&#039; concerns and not supported by the research reported in the link provided. Mentioning them is not &#039;intellectually irresponsible&#039;, it merely notice of events that have appeared in recent news as the result of several petitions to US and European courts. For a good discussion of these fears and the studies that led to potential lawsuits, read this article at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_particle_collisions_at_the_Large_Hadron_Collider. This article has an extensive bibliography with many links and references to flawed research by those upset by the design of the CERN experiments, news reports of court petitions, independent safety studies commissioned by CERN etc. At the end of the day, these &#039;concerns&#039; appear to have no substance and have been solidly refuted as you correctly point out.

 Re-read the last paragraph of this article.. slowly. &quot;Minute black holes, such as those modeled for the LHC experiments, are predicted by many physicists to undergo runaway evaporation and disappear in a final burst of radiation.&quot; That is, they are harmless. The tiniest of black holes end their short lives in a burst of minute radiation. I think we are both in agreement.

Thanks for checking in and commenting..

Bennett</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan -<br />
The article you reference was read and understood by me some time ago. It is noted in this article that a &#8216;few&#8217; scientists are worried about dangers they perceive (?imagine) might result from micro black holes produced by the next round of experiments at CERN. I agree these worries are &#8216;fringe&#8217; concerns and not supported by the research reported in the link provided. Mentioning them is not &#8216;intellectually irresponsible&#8217;, it merely notice of events that have appeared in recent news as the result of several petitions to US and European courts. For a good discussion of these fears and the studies that led to potential lawsuits, read this article at Wikipedia: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_particle_collisions_at_the_Large_Hadron_Collider" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_particle_collisions_at_the_Large_Hadron_Collider</a>. This article has an extensive bibliography with many links and references to flawed research by those upset by the design of the CERN experiments, news reports of court petitions, independent safety studies commissioned by CERN etc. At the end of the day, these &#8216;concerns&#8217; appear to have no substance and have been solidly refuted as you correctly point out.</p>
<p> Re-read the last paragraph of this article.. slowly. &#8220;Minute black holes, such as those modeled for the LHC experiments, are predicted by many physicists to undergo runaway evaporation and disappear in a final burst of radiation.&#8221; That is, they are harmless. The tiniest of black holes end their short lives in a burst of minute radiation. I think we are both in agreement.</p>
<p>Thanks for checking in and commenting..</p>
<p>Bennett</p>
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		<title>By: jos</title>
		<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573/comment-page-1#comment-167695</link>
		<dc:creator>jos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=6573#comment-167695</guid>
		<description>Looks cool...but are they really black.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks cool&#8230;but are they really black.</p>
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		<title>By: Spencer</title>
		<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573/comment-page-1#comment-167437</link>
		<dc:creator>Spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=6573#comment-167437</guid>
		<description>This article is a complete waste of time. As a guide to black holes it is utterly useless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is a complete waste of time. As a guide to black holes it is utterly useless.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Haupt</title>
		<link>http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/guide-to-black-holes/6573/comment-page-1#comment-167094</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Haupt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=6573#comment-167094</guid>
		<description>I think it is intellectually irresponsible to claim that the black holes potentially produced by the LHC could be life-threatening. If the comment was made in jest it should be noted that the tone was lost in the writing. Furthermore, from what I could find you cite no sources for these &quot;very worried physicists&quot;.

Here is a link to the Study of Potentially Dangerous Events During Heavy-Ion Collisions at the LHC (http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf). If you don&#039;t care to read it allow me to sum it all up with a quote: &quot;Thus we conclude that black-hole production does not present a conceivable risk at the LHC due to the rapid decay of the black hole through thermal processes.&quot;

Hope this helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is intellectually irresponsible to claim that the black holes potentially produced by the LHC could be life-threatening. If the comment was made in jest it should be noted that the tone was lost in the writing. Furthermore, from what I could find you cite no sources for these &#8220;very worried physicists&#8221;.</p>
<p>Here is a link to the Study of Potentially Dangerous Events During Heavy-Ion Collisions at the LHC (<a href="http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf)" rel="nofollow">http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf)</a>. If you don&#8217;t care to read it allow me to sum it all up with a quote: &#8220;Thus we conclude that black-hole production does not present a conceivable risk at the LHC due to the rapid decay of the black hole through thermal processes.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
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